Gord Chord question

[lighthead2toe]

Forgot to mention also that Gord plays it with the capo on the second fret.

In his liner notes he says to use to capo to adjust to your individual vocal range. R.

[DawnsMinstrel]

Hi again everyone,

I've been traveling to Santa Fe NM so I missed a day of checking this thread. Thanks for the moral support jj .

Just one thing: I'm going to have stick to my guns here and respectfully disagree with Ron. As I've said already, I often find myself hearing things that aren't in the books.

The notes of the chords in question are:

Em9 - E G B F#

Bm flat 6 - B D F# G

What I hear - B F# G B
- B F# G C#
- E B F# G B

As you can see the chords are closely related. Emin9 will work, but it won't sound exactly like what's on the recording.

As for the variations in what i hear, they are partly measure dependent and partly verse dependent.

Anyway, the fingerings I suggest in the post above should sound right if you try them out.

Best, Tim

[charlene]

yeah...what Tim said..my thoughts too.


damn i wish I had some musical talent..

[Jim Nasium]

Bm5+

||---|---|---|---|---|----
||---|---|-4-|---|---|----|
||---|---|---|---|---|----
||---|---|---|-5-|---|----
||---|-2-|---|---|---|----
||---|---|---|---|---|----X


As suggested in the OLD DAN'S RECORDS Songbook.


The left hand fingers are numbered 1 to 5. As has already been pointed out the 2 bars in question are the Phrygrian mode in G, and the "ing" of trying is on the G note. So I guess that is why it [G] is included in the Bm chord. I am aware that Gordon capos his songs. That's my 10 pence worth.

[jj]

couple of things:

i think Ron is referring to the section a few measures beyond what we were originally discussing (ie. the start of the melodic run)...glad you are back safe and sound, my good man

imo, the entire melodic run we've discussed appeals to me the least in this composition

Tim, i think you have jessie and myself mixed up...but i also support you!

in general, often play a root bass when it should be otherwise (eg, C/E or C/G)

sir John and Jessie...i didn't realize there were scores for all GL songs/albums, just the 'hits'....i think i've basically figured out and transposed a whack over the years but here are 3 that I would be interested in comparing if you don't mind scanning:

Nous Vivons Ensemble - My Pony Won't Go - Another Lazy Morning

perhaps the first section of Cabaret also...I usually just jump in after the 'pop'

cheers

ok, Round #2, lol)

What is the chord in On the high Seas at the start of the "and since I don't know, let me guess" phrase?

it could be diminished...i just passed thru it usually playing a dominant 7th

[lighthead2toe]

Hey guys.

Just decided to take the day off and have some fun here as well as catch up on a few chores that have been on hold for a while.

But let me start with the most recent and address JJ's chord matter since he doesn't know and I won't keep him guessing.

From the "Dream Street Rose" songbook for piano and guitar (3rd fret) the piano chord is "Am7-5" and the guitar chord is "F#m7-5."
So for the guitar it would be like an Am with either the little finger or thumb covering the low E string on the second fret.
Summing up, the B string is covered on the first fret, the low E, D and G string covered on the second fret.
That's the "And since I" part. The "Don't know" part is a B7 (piano, D7) and the "Let me guess" part ends with an Em (Gm piano).

So JJ, now you're back "On the High Seas."

I'll bring along the appropriate songbooks with me when I come to Ontario for the month of Sept. and hopefully we'll get together for a "scanning party."

Cheers,

RJ.

[Jesse Joe]

Originally Posted by jj

couple of things:

i think Ron is referring to the section a few measures beyond what we were originally discussing (ie. the start of the melodic run)...glad you are back safe and sound, my good man

imo, the entire melodic run we've discussed appeals to me the least in this composition

Tim, i think you have jessie and myself mixed up...but i also support you!

in general, often play a root bass when it should be otherwise (eg, C/E or C/G)

sir John and Jessie...i didn't realize there were scores for all GL songs/albums, just the 'hits'....i think i've basically figured out and transposed a whack over the years but here are 3 that I would be interested in comparing if you don't mind scanning:

Nous Vivons Ensemble - My Pony Won't Go - Another Lazy Morning

perhaps the first section of Cabaret also...I usually just jump in after the 'pop'

cheers

ok, Round #2, lol)

What is the chord in On the high Seas at the start of the "and since I don't know, let me guess" phrase?

it could be diminished...i just passed thru it usually playing a dominant 7th

I hope this is what you were asking for jj ?

(1) Nous Vivons Ensemble

[Jesse Joe]

(2) My Pony Wont Go

[Jesse Joe]

(3) Another Lazy Morning

[Jesse Joe]

(4) Cabaret

[Jesse Joe]

Hey jj,

I dont have "On The High Seas" in my Song Books !


http://www.lightfoot.ca/onhighse.htm

[lighthead2toe]

Originally Posted by Jesse Joe

These are my 4 Gordon Lightfoot (Song Books) but no "Yarmouth Castle" in anyone of them.

*

An interesting point to raise here would be that the corresponding songbooks to Gord's albums came out in different versions.
As an example , the "Old Dan's Records" songbook that Jesse Joe highlights is the "piano/vocal version. If you zoom in you can see it clearly.
The one that I have is the "guitar, original lead sheets and notes" version.
My "Summer Side of Life" songbook also has guitar, original lead sheets and notes.
These versions are also hand written by Gord.

[lighthead2toe]

"Ballad of the Yarmouth Castle" is available on "www.chordie.com." It's a great song and I love the version John Stinson does with Paul Bartlett on lead guitar.
RJ.

[lighthead2toe]

Originally Posted by johnfowles

Jimbo you really should by now have found and read Wayne's comprehensive page on this subject at:-
http://www.lightfoot.ca/songbook.htm
for yours and Ron's education and interest Wayne says:-
SUNDAY CONCERT
- No book was issued.
- See "Sit Down Young Stranger"

SIT DOWN YOUNG STRANGER
- Apology, In A Windowpane and Leaves Of Grass from Sunday Concert are included in this book. Unfortunately, Ballad Of The Yarmouth Castle and The Lost Children are not

The ongoing uncertainty of the validity of the "Sunday Concert" songbook keeps my mind constantly in the "probing mode" and I have to admit that I am unable to come up with anything to this point to confirm that there was in fact one published.
What troubles me though is that apart from the vivid image of it there in my collection, I also remember learning the chords to "Ballad of the Yarmouth Castle," "The Lost Children" as well as "In a Windowpane," and "Leaves of Grass," as I used to get requests for those tunes at parties etc. in those days.
I would never be able to figure out "Gord's chords" without the help of his songbooks as my ear is far from keen when it comes to sorting out individual notes, chords etc. and I never did learn how to read music.
The Sunday Concert album was recorded in March, 1969 and I remember it well as I was there in Massey Hall that afternoon up real close to the front.
There was no E Bay in those days and Wayne Francis was just a kid.
My songbooks were shared with other aspiring Gordon Lightfoot fans and there were occasions when I needed to refer to one and upon discovering that it wasn't in the collection I simply went out and bought a second copy, and I still have several duplicates of some.
"A & A Records and Books" was next door to "Sam the Record Man" on Yonge Street in Toronto and that's where I would buy all my songbooks.
The "Sunday Concert Songbook" issue might haunt me to the grave. I need help!

Stay loose.

The Elder Jones.

[DawnsMinstrel]

Originally Posted by Jim Nasium

Bm5+

||---|---|---|---|---|----
||---|---|-4-|---|---|----|
||---|---|---|---|---|----
||---|---|---|-5-|---|----
||---|-2-|---|---|---|----
||---|---|---|---|---|----X


As suggested in the OLD DAN'S RECORDS Songbook.


The left hand fingers are numbered 1 to 5. As has already been pointed out the 2 bars in question are the Phrygrian mode in G, and the "ing" of trying is on the G note. So I guess that is why it [G] is included in the Bm chord. I am aware that Gordon capos his songs. That's my 10 pence worth.

Hi Jim,

I don't doubt either that this is what is in the Old Dan's Records book or that you're aware of the capoing issue- my apologies for making such an issue of it -

But this chord is not what I hear when I listen to the song. Technically, it's also not a Bm+5. There is a crucial difference between a Bm5+ and a Bm flat 6. A Bm5+ is a minor triad with the 5th sharped. There is no natural 5th in the chord. A Bm flat 6 is a full Bminor (natural 5th included) with a flatted sixth (a sharped 5) added. So we hear both the F# (the natural 5th) and the flatted 6th (G). The chord you've presented above has both the F# - played on string 4 and the G played on string 3.

The D obtained by fretting string 2 at three is the minor 3rd which does belong to Bm flat 6, but if you include it you won't hear what's on the record. Remove that finger and play the B string open and you will here it in all it's glory.

JJ -actually it was both of you.

To all, I'm sorry if I'm being a bit over-precise here but I got the impression that Brian was asking for the chord that best matches what's on the recording so the books are only useful if they actually say what's used on the recording and my experience is that they rarely get it completely right.

regards to all,

Tim

[lighthead2toe]

Tim, it's great to have you on board. Between the lot of us we'll sort this thing out come hell or high water.
What I would like to add here is the musical score is hand written by Gord in my songbook and unfortunately I can't read musical scores , but the sounds you're hearing with your keen ear probably are the ones that Gord has noted in the score and there are plenty of them.
So the "Bm5+" (as in Jim's post) begins at the line "I was only trying to get by, then the "Em9," with some of (Em) life's a(Em7)menities.
And these chords, together with what the notes in the musical score produce, we might be close to answer to the Gord chord question.

RJ.

[Unsettled 1]

Now this is getting good!

I am admittedly self taught, and wouldn't know a Triad if you slapped me with a Phyrgrian backhand, but I now believe (after listening) that it is 2nd string(B) and 4th string F#on "I was only", than dropping the B to an open A on "by with" (maybe adding a D, than down to em.

I also think it's possible that the G-F# roll you hear in the recording is Terry, due to the fact that Gord tends to stay with the same rhythm, which in this case appears to be his (Dentist inspired) standard like IYCRMM, and those notes appear a bit stronger than his guitar during those lines.

That's my conspiracy theory added to the mix.

Thanks to JJ, RJ, and Tim, who all know way too much Theory...

[RM]

Originally Posted by Unsettled 1

Thanks to JJ, RJ, and Tim, who all know way too much Theory...

Way too much indeed.

I know Lightfoot has studied music theory, but I wonder if he applied it in his songwriting days. Or, did he just think "that's sounds good. I'll go with it".

[charlene]

Originally Posted by RM

Way too much indeed.

I know Lightfoot has studied music theory, but I wonder if he applied it in his songwriting days. Or, did he just think "that's sounds good. I'll go with it".

yeah...what Ron said...
lol

[DawnsMinstrel]

Yeah, there is a lot going on I have to admit. I wouldn't be such a pain in the rear about it if it weren't for the fact that at least in verse one I definitely hear both the sharped 5th and the natural 5th leading me to think that the g and b strings are played open there.

I agree with RJ about the sequence generally, I'd have to check some of the details, but will say that in the same way that Bm5+ and Bm flat 6 are closely related, so too are Em sus2 and Em 9. An Em sus 2 is essentially and Em with the minor third dropped by a half step to the 2. The F# that still sounds when the E is played in the base on "by with..." is that 2..... but..... it's also a 9! So, if the minor third is still in there somewhere it may indeed be more correct to call it an Em9. I guess I was preferring sus2 because the F# is just a step away from the tonic. I think of 9's as being more than an octave away, but I must admit that the G which is the minor third is still there too. So Em9 it is.

[lighthead2toe]

Great stuff guys. You are the greatest!

Just to finish off the day with some final fun before I retire:

Remember the movie "Amadeus?" ya know; that Mozart guy?

Well, there's a cool part in that movie that just might, in some dreamy way, apply to this scenario.

You might need to take a look at movie to join in the fun here, but when it comes to the part where Mozart realizes that the Emperor has canceled his opera, he meets up with Salieri, the designated court composer to the Emperor to express his indignation.

Salieri, being in total awe of Mozart's gift of music and a jealous one as well, sort of convinces Mozart that he is on his side and tells him that he knows why the Emperor canceled Mozart's opera.

Salieri: I can speak for the Emperor:

"You make too many demands on the royal ear.
The poor man can't concentrate for more than one hour.
You gave him four!"

"TOO MANY NOTES!" (quote from the Emperor)

It's now available in CD format (two discs) which includes twenty minutes that were chopped out of the original TV version. The sound in greatly enhanced and the picture quality is amazing.

Keep intoned.

Cheers,

RJ.

[charlene]

Originally Posted by lighthead2toe

Great stuff guys. You are the greatest!


"TOO MANY NOTES!" (quote from the Emperor)

Cheers,

RJ.

LOLOL!!!!

[Jim Nasium]

DawnsMinstrel


Hi Jim,

I don't doubt either that this is what is in the Old Dan's Records book or that you're aware of the capoing issue- my apologies for making such an issue of it -

But this chord is not what I hear when I listen to the song. Technically, it's also not a Bm+5. There is a crucial difference between a Bm5+ and a Bm flat 6. A Bm5+ is a minor triad with the 5th sharped. There is no natural 5th in the chord. A Bm flat 6 is a full Bminor (natural 5th included) with a flatted sixth (a sharped 5) added. So we hear both the F# (the natural 5th) and the flatted 6th (G). The chord you've presented above has both the F# - played on string 4 and the G played on string 3.

The D obtained by fretting string 2 at three is the minor 3rd which does belong to Bm flat 6, but if you include it you won't hear what's on the record. Remove that finger and play the B string open and you will here it in all it's glory.

When I put in my 10 pence worth I was not expecting a $30 answer. But thanks for taking the trouble.

[lighthead2toe]

Well Jim, ya know us Lightheads: We would never put a five dollar saddle on a two dollar horse. (just a pun) RJ.

[DawnsMinstrel]

What can I say? Even in my day job I'm in the kind of business that demands this kind of detail. I guess it's a bad habit. I shall cease and desist. Regards to all. -Tim