question about "I Wish You Good Spaces: the book

Hello, just found this book in braille when I was browsing the titles in the library for the blind. I decided to punch in Lightfoot and see what happened. I found someone else named Lightfoot, but also found this book. Can anyone tell me what I'll get when the book finally gets here? I went onto Amazon and found a few other books, but since they're not available in braille, I won't be able to read them. But, I'll take what I can get. Thanks a lot. Matthew

[SilverHeels]

That 'inscription' really makes me sad. I
think it sounds like someone/something (a
relationship?) is dying - that was my
immediate thought but I will think about it
some more.

Whatever it means, I hope Gord's words
brought them comfort.

I too was very touched by the inscription in Watchman's book.
I agree Bill was dying and Christine was doing her best to comfort him, and perhaps herself. But I wonder, why would Bill's life be changed, not ended, by death, and not those who will not become butterflies?
In other words, what was Christine's implication? That Bill would go on to other things in death, yet others will not?
Any explanations or theories?

Thanks for the response, Watchman.
A thought popped into my head just after I posted my previous reply.
My sister and I talked, and she reminded me that a butterfly is symbolic of some form of the afterlife, whether it's a next stage in death or another form of existence.
A butterfly is what becomes of a caterpillar when the caterpillar reaches a certain point. Perhaps Bill had reached that point (old age), and Christine was telling him to be thankful for a full life because others are not so fortunate (picture a squashed caterpillar in your driveway). At least, in my opinion, that is what Christine was trying to convince herself and Bill to believe.
Man, my thoughts are totally centered on Bill and Christine now. I wonder how comforting Gord's lyrics were to her. I believe, without having seen the book, she made a very good choice.

Thanks

jbt

[SilverHeels]

I dont agree with Watchman re reincarnation but a Gordon Lightfoot forum is hardly
the place to discuss it.

[BILLW]

watchman & jbt,

you are both excellent philosophers, rap on dudes. but in the meantime watchman that is the second time you've done that picture magic (not real magic, just an expression). How is that accomplished?

Bill

[NX]

It's TheWatchman here. I signed up with an alias so you can click the edit button in this post and see how adding a pic is done.


There you have it. Click the icon at the top of this post with the pencil on it. The username is NX and the password is sample

[This message has been edited by NX (edited September 24, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by NX (edited September 25, 2002).]

[Restless]

WOW! It's difficult to impress me, Watchman, but you've done it! I just tried your image instructions at the test forum (picture of astronaut): it really works and it truly is easy! (By the way, you also impress me with your sound theology...)

[catmanron]

Thankyou for sharing that picture of Maine with us Watchman.

I've never been to Maine and probably never will, but in my mind I have a picture of snow, old jetties and associated fishing village wooden buildings, fishing boats, and of course lots of lobster ( I would say crayfish, but Cathy will growl at me.. lol )pots.
Hopefully lots of people have now learnt how to post pictures and we can share the beautiful parts of the world we all live.

So many of Gords songs remind me of landscapes like your picture.. ( The Lake of the Woods ), I know its no where near Maine, maybe its Lake Placid, I'm sure you can see the crocodile in that picture.

Keep Smiling.. Ron

Reincarnation is not "lame" from my point of view; it is an integral part of my spiritual beliefs. I'm Pagan, and I think you'll find that most Pagans believe in reincarnation to some extent. I don't believe in heaven or hell or the devil or evil or your Christian God or your bible. Reincarnation is not about being afraid of death, or an attempt to avoid changing your life. It is quite the opposite. If one doesn't get it right in this life, they have to keep coming back until they do; that is what reincarnation is about. It's not a never ending process with no point or purpose. The soul is here to learn from each incarnation and perfects itself until it is ready to rejoin with the higher power. The goal is to move on, not to keep coming back. Personally, I want to get it right this time around, rather than come back to this earth plane again. I've found that most people with a strong belief in reincarnation, like myself, are not afraid of death. We know that everything happens in it's own time and for it's own reason, including death, and it is part of the journey and the learning.

And almost all of us who believe in reincarnation DO NOT believe we come back as apples or coffee cups. Please try not to insult other's beliefs with your absurd examples.

The woman who wrote the inscription was, I believe, referring to her own ability to change and grow into a more spiritual being. She was not literally talking about changing into a butterfly, but it was a metaphor.

quote:Originally posted by TheWatchman:
jbt,

Sometimes people are afraid of death and especially when they don't believe in God and everlasting life. If you don't believe in Salvation then death is veeery scary. I'm not straying from the topic here, read on.

I believe, in Christine's own attempt to not accept the fact that Bill would be dead, accepted the lame theory of reincarnation. Hence, turning into butterflies. You see, your never dead if you keep on coming back. But, if this theory were true, you know how many freaking people there would be on earth! Besides, if you believe in reincarnation, there is no hell. People that I have spoke with that believe this, are firm about it. This way, they don't have to change their lives, they just keep coming back as apples, mosquitoes, coffee cups or congressmen until they get it right. Some people want to take the easy route because it "feels good" rather than take responsibility. Okay, now I'm getting off the subject so I'll stop.



------------------
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.

--R.W. Emerson

[SilverHeels]

Violet Blue Horse,

I'm with you! I did not intend to anger
Watchman - I just didnt think this was the
place to discuss religion which is always a
highly emotive subject and frequently turns
heated. I think Watchman's response to my
post proves I was right about that!

But his picture of Maine was stunning! and very cleverly executed. Thanks for the
lesson.

[Cathy]

quote:Originally posted by Oma:
I forgot to say "Thanks" Watchman for the info about GL books! Next time I am at Border's, I will check into some books about Gordon Lightfoot--I think a good biography would be nice.

You mentioned Maine--are the trees showing Fall colors out there now?? I've never been out that way, I'll bet it's pretty.


Hi Oma, and welcome.
I'm from Northern Maine, not too far away from where Watchman's picture was taken. The leaves are just starting to turn up here. They're a little late in turning this year, probably due to the mild weather. I took a trip down to upstate NY and southern CT last week, and their leaves were also starting to turn. I think once ours really start, though, it won't be long before they're at their peak, and not long before they all fall off.

Cathy

[ColoradoSue]

Violet/Watchman/Silver...et al:

I personally have no problem reading posts which briefly mention how people are praying to God for Gordy's wellbeing. Deep down, I think that it's all felt from the heart. We simply have our own paths.

"Mathematics is well & good but, Nature keeps dragging us around by the nose."
Albert Einstein


[This message has been edited by ColoradoSue (edited September 25, 2002).]

[wattsdmatter]

Watchman, like the picture. Reminds me of a place I spent sometime at in Maine a few years ago. It was by a lake called Toddy Pond. My wife and I were boating on the lake when a small plane almost took our toupees off coming in to land on the pond. It was the Ranger doing his rounds. That sort of thing does not happen here in Blighty. :ek:

[wattsdmatter]

Should I have typed

Those of us who disagree with your obviously Christian slant do so, not because we feel threatened or are insecure in our beleifs. We disagree with you because you seem to want to deny the existence of truth in other religions. Other religions have the right to exist, and those who believe, to practice. Christianity is not the only TRUE religion, and other religious beliefs are valid as well, and deserve RESPECT, whether you believe in their practices or not. You don't seem to have much respect for the diversity of religious beliefs in this world; that is the problem I have. You ridicule and scorn things like reincarnation, and then turn around and say "Just kidding" and you think that makes it alright. It does not. That is lip service and nothing more. Please show respect for others beliefs. I will not make fun of your religious beliefs, you will not make fun of mine. It's a simple thing.

And I have been Pagan and believed in reincarnation since I was 15. I am 40 now. I follow no guru. Most Pagan's do not follow anyone. The majority of us are solitary practicioners who do not belong to covens. And covens are not headed by anyone. There are learneds who have more knowledge, but they "run" nothing.

No, I can't PROVE I have lived before. Can you PROVE Jesus rose from the dead? And no, citing biblical passages is not proof. It comes down to belief. I believe in reincarnation and you believe that Jesus rose from the dead. I have a right to my beliefs, and you have a right to yours. I don't have to prove my beliefs, nor do you have to prove yours. Simple respect, that is all I ask.


quote:Originally posted by TheWatchman:
violet Blue Horse, yes, I know Christine was speaking metaphorically. Especially because it is impossible to come back from the dead, much less into a butterfly. Jesus Christ is the only person to have come back from the dead. Can you give me another example? How many times have you come back? How old are now? Were you ever a famous person? Have you been both male and female in past lives? I'm not being sacastic, I am trying to learn more about this and what triggered your response.

SilverHeels, you have proven nothing. I was upset about you constantly playing the "armed guard" around here in regards to posting. Your comments on reincarnation did not offend me. Please re-read my previous post. Again, it is the constant comments about straying from the topic, not only in this thread but others going back months.

You gotta admit, the comment about the coffee cups and apples was funny. It was not meant to be taken seriously, obviously. If you can't laugh at yourself you are taking life to seriously.

I have had several debates with people who believe in such things and in the end, they are silent because you cannot argue truth. The truth is constant. People who believe such as yourselves change your minds all the time about your beliefs. It just depends on what some new guru giving a seminar you are listening to. You know I am right. Of course you will say no because I cannot "call you on this one" because I do not know you nor do I have a history of discussion about this with you. But I have known many, and in the end, they cannot argue. If you are wrong about your beliefs, you will spent eternity in a very undesirable place. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing at all. But maybe I will be punished and come back as a can of paint or something.

I want to clear somethine up around here. I have been reading about chanting and all kinds of other practices written in "The Gordon Lightfoot" forum for over 2 weeks now. I have responded to none of these comments, up until yesterday. After reading about chanting the hell out of things for the upteanth time, I decided to say something. Although I am all for the freedon of speech, and I also live and let live, but shouldn't I be allowed to make comments as well? If you felt offended, those are your own insecurities surfacing. Shall I start a new thread and educate on psychology? I am the type of person that rarely discusses religion at all. I let people do and say as they wish as it in no way shape or form (no pun intended!)threatens me. However, those of you who have made comments attacking me on a personal nature obviously feel threatened because your "beliefs" are not sound and you cannot stand on them alone.

So SilverHeels, you are 100% incorrect about why I was upset. It is about you whining about others trying discuss openly about new topics as they present themselves. I think I was very to the point about that in my last post but you somehow missed out on it. I will take responsibilty for that as I was doing the writing and it is my job to convey to you accurately what I am trying to get across. Am I getting through this time?

[This message has been edited by TheWatchman (edited September 25, 2002).]

[Cathy]

quote:Originally posted by TheWatchman:
Thanks! The picture does not do the area justice at all. Could you imagine living in a spot like that and each morning stepping out onto the back deck and having a view like that while you sip your morning coffee? I know Cathy can but this flatlander city boy can't! If would have had all my camera gear, I would have taken a few shots of that area and probably would have had one of them framed. That's how impressed I was with the area. Still, where that pic was taken, is probably about 75-100 miles south of where Cathy lives. She lives waaaaay up north. I hadn't even been to the town of Houlton yet where that pic was taken. It's a whole other world up there. I love areas like that I am very lucky that I was able to see it and experience it, on my employer's nickle.

Well, you can live in a spot like that and see that very mountain up close from your window every morning. There are two towns that I know of on the south end of the mountain: Medway, and Millinocket. The area around the mountain is called Baxter State Park. Once you enter the park, it hits you just how large this mountain is. It's a mile high. When my kids were smaller, we used to camp in the park, next to a stream that bubbled over small boulders. It's quite a beautiful spot. I quit going because the last year I went, a bear pulled up a tent in the area, and dragged it across a field, with the owner of the tent still inside. He managed to escape and climb a tree, but he had to have over 50 stitches in his right leg where the bear bit and clawed him. After that, I didn't go back. I doubt that he did, either!

And Watchman, next time you come up on your employer's nickle, let me know in advanced so I'm not out of town!!

Cathy

[Cathy]

quote:Originally posted by catmanron:
Thankyou for sharing that picture of Maine with us Watchman.

I've never been to Maine and probably never will, but in my mind I have a picture of snow, old jetties and associated fishing village wooden buildings, fishing boats, and of course lots of lobster ( I would say crayfish, but Cathy will growl at me.. lol )pots.
Keep Smiling.. Ron

I won't growl at you unless you tell me we have fruit bats!

Cathy

[Cathy]

quote:Originally posted by wattsdmatter:
Watchman, like the picture. Reminds me of a place I spent sometime at in Maine a few years ago. It was by a lake called Toddy Pond. My wife and I were boating on the lake when a small plane almost took our toupees off coming in to land on the pond. It was the Ranger doing his rounds. That sort of thing does not happen here in Blighty. :ek:

I was camping at Pleasant Lake once a few years ago, not too far from where Watchman's picture was taken. What I didn't know was that Pleasant Lake was a designated training area for pilots from Loring Airforce Base. At about 4:30AM on the first day there, I was rudely awakened by 6 fighter jets flying at about 50 ft above the lake, at very high speeds. My poor little pop up camper was shaking back and forth and my kids were screaming! It was pretty scary, and looked like something out of Star Wars.


Cathy

[2Much2Lose]

I chose not to share my personal religious beliefs in this forum, although some of you may know them, but I feel it necessary to comment on what are the proper parameters of discussions of religion within this discussion forum. In my opinion, Watchman has gone far beyond mere response to a thread and has strayed into the realm of proselytizing. Inherent in his responses is his claim to have been shown the "one true faith." Many, if not most, religions claim to be the one true faith, and this is especially true for the more radically fundamental adherents whether believers in Islam, Christian fundamentalism, Mormonism or Judaism.

The problem with making professions of such faiths is that the speaker inherently criticizes those who do not share his views as unbelievers, infidels. As Abraham Lincoln said (I paraphrase), when two opposing sides both claim to be on the side of God, at least one, and perhaps both, is wrong.

Watchman could use a course on comparative religions, where he might learn that it was common in first century (and older) religions to include resurrection stories (Orpheus, Eurydice, Jason, Ulysses, Aeneas all traveled to and returned from the land of the dead). Accordingly, the question of whether to believe the Christian resurrection story is not dependent upon its uniqueness, but rather is purely a matter of faith. One cannot prove that Christianity is correct (or incorrect); one can merely believe it (or disbelieve).

I note that Christ never addressed the subject of reincarnation, so there is no way of knowing whether reincarnation of the soul (i.e, as a human, not a coffee cup) is consistent with the teachings of Jesus. It strikes me that reincarnation is not too different from dividing the wheat from the chaff and the lambs from the goats. To believe in the soul's purification thru experiencing higher and higher planes of existence is very similar to the Christian view expressed in Dante's Divine Comedy. Indeed, what is purgatory but a place where the soul's errors are purged so as to allow the soul to ascend to a higher plane (heaven)?

I note also that Watchman's claim that this country was founded by Christian men is inaccurate. Jefferson did not consider himself a Christian; rather, he was a deist who called Revelations (the Apocalypse of St. John) "the ravings of a madman." He wrote to John Adams as follows:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823) Jefferson also stated:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

Patriot Thomas Paine, whose statue is across the street from my office, openly criticized the Bible and called it nonsense in his deist-atheistic book, "The Age of Reason."

George Washington never professed any Christian beliefs and he appointed a universalist as army chaplain.

Ethan Allen stated "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." Allan said he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."

Benjamin Franklin expressed doubts as to the divinity of Christ, but said it was not worth his time or trouble to study the subject more thoroughly.

The Treaty of Tripoli, which ended the conflict with the Barbary pirates and was signed by President John Adams, contains the following statement: "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

I am not making these statements to criticize those who believe in Christianity. Nor do I say them to give comfort to the pagans and Jews and Mormons and Buddhists among us. I merely want to put the record straight and to say that this is not the time or place for proselytizing. Take it offline or into a chat room.

Now, having said more than enough on the subject, could we please get back to Lightfoot and to praying (as each of us sees fit) for his recovery?

2M2L


------------------
"And the laughter came too easy for life to pass me by."

[ColoradoSue]

My question is...W.W.G.D.?

(What Would Gordy Do?)

------------------
"Mathematics is well & good but, Nature keeps dragging us around by the nose."
Albert Einstein

[BILLW]

Watchman,

Thank you for answering my question about posting the pictures! I appreciate it.
I'd prefer not to join the ongoing fracas but you certainly have caused many of us posters to expose ourselves.
And might I say, as grandma useta say, "Son, you have the patience of a Saint" Rock On, Dude.
Bill

You obviously had no intention of having an honest conversation. Let me rephrase that, I don't think you know how to have an honest conversation. You are relying on smoke and mirrors and sarcasm and putting words into peoples mouths. I find your condescension sad. The brick wall you are talking to is your own. You have built it around you. No one else put it there, it is all your making.

quote:Originally posted by TheWatchman:
Sometimes I feel as though I am talking to a brick wall. I never said that you don't believe in Christianity because you are insecure. I said, and read close this time, that you felt threatened by my opinion and post that you felt compelled to respond in such a fashion. Geeze. You guys are the ones who responded with both barrels pointed at me and now you are trying to turn the tables. I was asked my opinion and I gave it. Too bad so sad that it ruined your day. That's your issue, not mine. Furthermore, I did not ask you to prove that you have lived before. Like I said, I mean you replied with my quote, you should have actually read it and understood it. I said "I'm not being sacastic, I am trying to learn more about this and what triggered your response".

You best do a little more homework before you try and debate any issues with me, please. In order to debate with me, you must be able to follow my words and understand what I am writing. If you don't understand something, please ask and I will gladly re-state something that I have written. You take and twist what I write and make up meanings when none are there. There is no way to have an adult conversation when all you do is accuse and fabricate, and then resort to personally attacking me.

I have no problem discussing issues as "hot" as religion, but I do ask that you convey some sort of manners and respect. I have NEVER made this personal. You both have. Sure, I make it well known that I do not believe in pagan stuff, but I have yet get angry about your beliefs or attack you. I know you have forgotten already so I will mention it again, I was upset about being told what to post and what not to in this forum. It has nothing to do with your beliefs. Again, I may have made some comments about your religion that you did not like, but that is life. Deal with it my friends, it ain't gonna change. You as well have made not only negative comments about my belief in Christianity but also have gone as far to say that I am brainwashed, telling me to "enlighten up" et. etc. That enlighten up remark sounds like something you saw on a bumper sticker.

So, in conclusion, until you two or three people can follow my writings and comprehend them, show some manners and discuss things like you are adults, I am forced to be finished with this conversation. It is going nowhere and as long as you don't want to talk about your beliefs and why you believe them, and not take so much interest in me personally, I have better things to do.

By the way, when I said I was kidding about the coffee cup etc., I was. I was trying to "lighten" things up a bit. Again, another personal attack on myself with the lip service bit. Is that all you got? Move on already about the coffee cup. Your beating a dead horse.

I do want to thank you guys for your attempt at a good debate, but better luck next time. I wonder if you will respond with some sort of flaming post again, or if it really sank in this time. You be the judge and I'll sit back and see what you decide.

[This message has been edited by TheWatchman (edited September 25, 2002).]



------------------
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.

--R.W. Emerson

[Cathy]

Well, guys, all I can say is all the squabbling going on here about religion is ruining the pleasant atmosphere that this fine site is known for. Think about what new people who have stumbled upon this site in the last couple of days must think. Surely, a few of them will be scared away.
Does it really matter what we all believe in? No. Everyone has a right to their own personal beliefs, whatever works for them, and that's all that matters. None of us are axe murders, child abusers, drug pushers, thieves or any other type of criminal, and we all try to lead good lives. In that sense, we are all living right, regardless of our religious beliefs.
Mom always told me not to talk about three things in public: religion, politics and sex. I'm going to stick to her fine instructions, and I'm going to spend my excess energy on something that's very important to all of us: sending out well wishes to Gordon for a speedy recovery.

Cathy

[formerlylavender]

Man, I'm not touching this with a 10 foot pole!

However, getting back to the book - I NEED a copy. Will begin search promptly...