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Old 03-01-2003, 01:08 PM   #1
MatthewBullis
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Hello, ok this is the second time I've heard about problems with discussing bootlegs on the board. Someone mentioned it in the Talk to Gordon thread that I just read, and the Watchman mentioned it to me privately in an e-mail, referring to things that had happened before I joined this board. Will someone please either let me know the deal, or point me to the relevant thread to read? As I said in another post, the Rare Gord site is currently down, because my brother needed the space to transfer a file for a few days, but honestly I never heard of any problems myself other than what I said. All the e-mail I've recieved regarding my web site has been thankful e-mails telling me how much they enjoyed the songs. If it is really a problem, then I suppose I should keep it down and remove the html web pages that are there. Please let me know how to proceed. I put a disclaimer up there about copyrighted material, but if it still is a problem, just let me know, and I won't upload the files, and I will remove the html files that still remain there.
Thanks a lot.
Matthew
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Old 03-01-2003, 01:37 PM   #2
TheWatchman
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Yes. I received an email from a member of this site several months ago when I was inquiring about picking up some bootlegs to trade etc. I was told that if I ever mentioned anything about bootlegs either on Corfid or any of the newsgroups, I would most likely be hearing from Barry Harvey or Lightfoot's attorney, or something to that effect. I was also told that any discussion whatsoever about bootlegs will not be tolerated at either discussion venue. I have never, nor would I, ever sneak recording equipment into a concert. I don't have the nerve to do that. But I do love to listen to him perform live.

I sent Matthew the disc from the La Cave concert, as most of you already know. I received it from a member of the Newsgroup who also has a Lightfoot site of his own. I won't mention any names. I had first asked Matthew to please remove my name from the LaCave concert, just to be safe as I was not sure what was brewing behind the scenes. After further thought, I said the heck with it and just leave my name next to it, and if it needs to come down, then so be it.

I too would really like to know the truth surrounding this bootleg issue. I can see no reason why Lightfoot or EMP would have a problem with what Matthew is doing. Nothing is available for sale that is on his site. Nothing is being sold. It is all free to those who want to download it or just simply listen to it.

There are many members of this site that have never heard Gordon live (and most likely never will due to his current health situation) and this is a great way for them to share in the phenominal concerts that he gives us. We are all huge fans and are always striving to find new material.

If anything, it is flattering that he still has such a huge fan base that wants all the rare recordings that they can get their hands on. We all own every single album and CD that has ever been released. I can see no harm but it does not matter what I or anybody else thinks. Those in the know at this site all have the bootlegs too. So, is it okay to have them but just don't let anybody but close friends know about it? Or is it best just to not have them at all? I know what my answer is and I also know that most of the people on this site have many, many, many bootlegs of their own. I just want some straight talk about this issue for once.

We don't need to get into the law with this. We all know what it is. Some of you know how Gord and EMP feels about bootlegs. This is the real issue. Does Gord mind if fans share live recordings? That is where the buck stops, at least in my book.
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Old 03-01-2003, 02:39 PM   #3
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Matthew,

Sorry, I have trouble stringing two sentences together without some attempt at a joke or sarcasm or things of that nature. On the thread you were referring to I was attempting irony, which is tough to do well. I had heard that some folks like to talk the tough talk about bootlegs, which I know fairly little about. I was hoping my comment might get someone talking, this is a discussion board but sometimes it's more like a monologue delivery system or MDS. So if anyone knows the answer, let's hear it. Or as someone once said "let he who owns not one unauthorized recording pitch the first fit". My short answer is I WAS KIDDING, sorry. Keep your site open, dude!

Bill
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Old 03-01-2003, 03:52 PM   #4
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Well I may as well add my 2 cents here. The last 4 years I have digitally recorded many of his performances off the TV, my computer is hooked up to my TV and stereo system, and many a night whenever he was on TV.

I would sit here for 3 hours patiently recording every song that he played on the TV. For the last few years it has been my hope and wish that Warner or Reprise would issue a recent live CD of him but alas that has not happened,( with the exception of Reno on DVD)

Now that I think of it I wonder if Lightfoot's management has in their archives all the concerts he has ever put out. Do they secretly record each concert and sock it away somewhere?

Gord himself said when they were doing the Songbook project, hundreds of songs were left on the cutting room floor. Some songs I have heard that have never been publicly released would make for a great CD. One song that comes to mind is My Love for You.

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Old 03-01-2003, 04:14 PM   #5
TheWatchman
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In Val Magee's exclusive interview with him, http://www.gordonlightfoot.com/Exclu...iewbyVal.shtml Gordon said that they were possibly thinking about releasing some of the live stuff from Massie Hall. Not sure which concert year(s) they will were thinking, but I hope and pray that along with some recent stuff, they release some of his 70's concerts.

I would love to have some earlier concerts from the 70's on CD. I am sure that EMP or somebody has tons of recordings from the soundboard. They would almost have to. I highly doubt that they have them all, but you can bet they have some great recordings.

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Old 03-02-2003, 12:23 AM   #6
joveski
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my 2 cents on this. Whether they're legal or not, they aren't bad. Gord hasn't toured Australia since 1974. I was born in 1977. How the hell can i ever see him live. It's ridiculous to fly over to america/canada for a show. No one is losing money. If they're sold, people are making money - but gord and co still aren't losing any.

keep your site open matthew.

welcome back watchman
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Old 03-02-2003, 06:39 PM   #7
SomewhereupinMichigan
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Wouldn't do any good to fly over here for a show anyway...since all the shows for the foreseeable future are cancelled. I was holding 4 ducats for what was supposed to be his first show back on tour this past fall (East Lansing, MI) after what was supposed to be a brief break to finish what was supposed to be the next CD. Now I'm wondering if there will be any future value in the tickets or if I should go ahead and toss 'em. (If my wife hasn't already during one of her cleaning frenzies!) Maybe GL doesn't care to "cash in" on his loyal fans at this particular time, but I think he and Barry, EMP and any possible label are missing an opportunity right now to do so by releasing a live, concert CD. Just my double lincoln-heads-worth!

Greetings to Watchman and, like others have said, Welcome Back! We missed you!

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Old 03-03-2003, 06:51 AM   #8
Brian 57
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I'm going to plead ignorance a bit and ask this question: what constitutes a "bootleg"-- is it any recording not on the original media it was purchased on? Is it a recording on equipment snuck into a concert? Is it taping off the tv? Just wondering.
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Old 03-03-2003, 07:36 AM   #9
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Taken from CD Pinkerton (standard views within the industry). This will sum it all up. Bottom line, keep trading those rare Gordon performances.

Definitions
Here are the proper definitions of the terms according to American Heritage dictionary:

Copy: a reproduction of the original
Pirate: the use of stolen intellectual property of another
Counterfeit: an inferior duplication made to defraud
Bootleg: Product produced without permission

Confused? Good! Forget all that. Here are the definitions as they are used by insiders. ...

Copy
Once you become the legal user of copyrighted material, the material is yours to use and enjoy within the guidelines of the copyright. The guidelines of the copyright however, are extremely restrictive. It is generally accepted, though, that the user will be allowed to make one copy or backup solely for her/his own use. There is never permission to make more than one copy. There is never permission to give, sale, or share this backup copy with another. This one (and only one) piece made for individual use is what industry insiders call a copy.

Pirates
If you choose to make more than one copy of copyrighted material you have moved to this level. You have violated the copyright, and therefore, the law. Whether you are making one or two copies to give to friends, or 50 copies to sell at the flea market , it is illegal. When you make unauthorized copies of copyrighted material for any reason whatsoever, you are in violation of the law. These illegal copies are what industry insiders refer to as pirates or pirate copies. With the advent of the recordable CD, Pirates are soon going to be the record label nemesis. In 1996 pirate music CDs were virtually unknown. Today there are millions worldwide. As they can now be made by anyone with a few hundred dollars investment, they are going to quickly overtake the counterfeit as the public enemy No.1 for the major labels.

Counterfeit
This is by far the most damaging (at the time of this writing) and illegal transgression of our discourse. While most of us would have to admit to at some point, knowingly or unknowingly, producing a pirated copy ... no one has ever accidentally made a counterfeit. When you hear the term 'counterfeit money' you automatically know that we are talking about something so illegal as to warrant prison time for those who perpetrate the crime. It is no less an illegal activity to counterfeit copyrighted material such as a data or music CD or tape. As with counterfeit money, the term counterfeit refers to the exact duplication of an item. Exact down to the cover artwork, song titles printed on the cassette, etc. etc. As you can see, these duplicates aren't made by accident. They are made to deceive the public into thinking they are buying an original product when they are not. Multiple millions upon millions of dollars have been lost due to these practices. Everybody loses except for the individual thieves who pocket all of the profits. Going backwards up the chain, first of all the consumer loses by being duped into purchasing an inferior product that many times will tear up in a short amount of time or worse yet, cause damage to their equipment. The legitimate retailer loses. Because they can't compete with the prices of the illegal merchandise, they lose the sell. Upline the jobbers, wholesalers, reps., etc. all lose the ability to make their honest living. Now we get to the record label who sometimes has millions of dollars invested in a particular project that can't recoup all of the money due to the lost sales. And finally to the artist, who not only loses monetarily on this project; but can sometimes suffer a worse fate. A friend of mine was dropped by his record label partly because of poor (if you can call a quarter million pieces poor) sales of the last album he did for them. Yet, I have seen counterfeit after counterfeit of his albums being sold at all the local flea markets. Now I realize that a thousand or so pieces sold from six or eighth establishments is not going to bring down a record label. But, if it happens here, it's happening other places. It doesn't take too many thousands of lost sales to eventually add up to a problem! These illegal duplications are what the industry insiders call counterfeits.


Bootleg
Now we get to the crux of the discussion. Everything that you have read so far is what a bootleg is not. Now, for what a bootleg is. To get down to its legal definition ... the affixing of intellectual property of an individual to a medium for the intent to distribute said medium without owner's consent. ... OK, that's too much legalese... still, that sounds like it would be something illegal!!!!! Well, most places it is. (So is not wearing your seat belt.) well, sometimes the rules get broken. This section is not meant to romanticize the obviously illegal practice of intellectual property theft, rather to put it into perspective. First of all... exactly what is intellectual property?, how does the copyright work?, what part is illegal?, ...

OK, hold your horses. I know you want all the answers quick, but I'm a slow typist. You're just going to have to give me some time here. First of all, the copyright. Copyrights work in many ways on many different levels. The one that concerns us is the copyright of intellectual property. The intellectual property for the purpose of our discussion is a song. Once a song is completed it is automatically copyrighted (contrary to popular belief). The fact that the writer put it down to paper or tape gives him/her an immediate copyright. Most people choose to register their song with the Copyright Office. As confusing as it may sound, that registration process is not the copyright. Merely the registration of something that is already automatically copyrighted. In case there are ever legal questions, this registration will hold up in court as concrete evidence. The copyright also gives the owner the right to profit from any commercial use of the song.
1999 Craig Pinkerton Bobsboots.com 1999 Craig Pinkerton Bobsboots.com 1999 Craig Pinkerton Bobsboots.com
With that out of the way, let's talk about bootlegging. A bootleg album, cassette, or CD is one that has been created completely from material (songs, spoken word, etc.) that is not commercially available. The material might be from an interview, radio broadcast, recording from a live concert, studio outtake tapes etc. etc. The bootlegger will take this material and affix it to a record album to be distributed in very small quantities. Sometimes as many as a thousand ... sometimes as few as a hundred or less. Past releases have sometimes been of very dismal quality. No matter. The releases are not going to be mass marketed ... they're only intended for a handful of collectors worldwide. Collectors who are usually so dedicated to the artist they collect that they will surely own every commercially available piece offered by the artist. As in the more recent example of Bob Dylan's Royal Albert Hall concert, or a past example of the Basement Tapes, if a bootleg item is ever released officially, the bootleg collector will be the first person in line to pay money for the released version. For the most part, we are talking about recordings that would never see the light of day any other way. The major Labels could never afford to release all of this material that would only interest a handful of fanatical fans worldwide. The only alternative to bootlegs is for the performances to be forever lost. History will decry such an austere solution. Looking back to the roots of blues, jazz, country, and rock music; there are multiple thousands of lost performances and artists that we will never hear. We are less of a civilization for the loss. Thank God for the handful of bootleggers that did preserve the recordings that we now view as true treasures of the history of music, and therefore, the history of mankind.

Yes, there are copyright laws in effect to protect the owner against loss of income. Yes, creating a bootleg album violates those laws and could amount to several hundred dollars lost revenue for the artist. Yes, you should always wear your seat belt.
Conclusion
In the few years since the original creation of this writing, there have been massive changes in the world. Some of those changes have seen the super highway evolve into the internet, and the internet grow from a curiosity into a way of life. In the even fewer years that this page has been available online, the creation of MP3 and CDR have forever changed the medium of choice of those who collect and trade music recordings. These two mediums have created a pirate music explosion that the lowly cassette tape could have never imagined. There have been lawsuits won and lost, and discussions and heated debates over the legalities and morality of buying, selling, and trading recorded music. I would like to take this opportunity to interject my personal viewpoint on the subject. The unique viewpoint of both a theologian and philosopher, of a musician, writer, union advocate, music collector, and music retailer. First and foremost, it is my strongest belief that a worker is worthy of his hire. Just as one draws a paycheck for a day's labor, there are those whose labor consist of creating and distributing recorded music. It runs counter to everything that I hold dear to cheat the worker. The laborer is cheated if and when she creates an item to sell, (such as a CD) and that item is then copied and given or sold without reimbursement to the creator. That is exactly what happens when music is downloaded for free, and/or CDR copies are made from a store bought CD. To those that claim that music "belongs to the people, and should be free to all".. I say "As long as you have never drawn a paycheck for your labor, I can understand your viewpoint." Now for bootlegs... This same argument does not hold true for a commercial bootleg. Why? Because the manufacturer of the bootleg was never hired in the first place. One could not enter a property without invitation, mow the lawn; trim the hedges, weed the garden... and then contact the customer to demand payment; because one would be required to be hired in the first place. However, this scenario has happened before, and the worker paid. Only because the customer chose to pay. So it is with the creation of bootlegs. It is not within the right of the manufacturer to create them in the first place. Once they are created, however, there are those who choose to pay for them. There are also those who choose to copy, and distribute them freely. Neither choice, in my opinion, should be viewed as illegal or immoral. To those who want to own the silver CD as a collectible item.. buy them. To those who would rather (or can only afford to) trade a CDR copy... trade them. To those who say the original artist should get a portion of the proceeds of the sell of a boot... I have no problem with that. The one who would take issue would be the record label to which the artist is under contract. In practical terms, however, the percentage loss of an artist and label from the distribution of a boot title is measured in the hundreds (not thousands) of dollars. It is easier, more economical, and far better for public relations, to turn a blind eye to the bootleggers. After all, Some of these bootleggers... they make pretty good stuff! As for what is a boot and what isn't... which is fair game to copy and which is not... here is a good rule of thumb:Go to any record store at your local mall and ask if a title can be ordered. Check Amazon.com, and Barnes and Nobel. For a small Indie release, contact the artist themselves. If, and only if, you find that the title is offered for sell in none of these places, on any format medium.... Then copy away. If you find the title is offered for sell in any one of these establishments, and you choose to copy it anyway... don't dare complain when your employer cheats you out of your final paycheck.
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Old 03-03-2003, 09:19 AM   #10
gwen snyder
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Hi Matthew, I feel terrible that you of such pure countenance regarding this issue are further dragged into the me'lee. Thank you for all you have done! Please accept my apology regarding this issue, I have these recordings that are dicussed here and I can say they are cherished by all of us...we are Gordon Lightfoot fans.
Hi Watchman. Regarding the intellectual property rights, we have made some assumptions in recording these "properties", and from the "legalese" it appears that we could be held accountable to the letter of the law, how sad, and yet there are always two sides to every lawsuit. Let's not prosecute one another here, let's wait for the powers that be to decide their actions on these matters. Intellectual property law is a new kid on the block of law, my assumption will be that like the information highway changed our lives, so might some of these intellectual property cases. Will we all be prosecuted and sent to some further purgatory for these acts? I pray not, let's move forward, and until "the Homeland Security team" arrives at our doors' let's be cautious. Gordon Lightfoot is the element that binds us, let's just concentrate on this forums' perspective "Gord topics"...with his health fragile and our efforts small, I wonder where this will all go to...but, there will be changes in intellectual property law that will affect all of this. Watchman, can we count on you to keep us abreast of these changes?
Gwen
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Old 03-03-2003, 03:05 PM   #11
TheWatchman
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There was a thread about "Yellowbird" a few months back. I responded to it and asked the simple question if it was a bootleg, a fake or actually a rare LP that was once offered for sale. I got my repsonse to the question but what I received in an email was altogether different. I was very politely threatened to not talk about bootlegs on this site or any place else, etcetera.

I quickly dismissed the email and hadn't given it another thought as I am not in the bootleg business. In the meantime, I sent Matthew that La Cave disc. I remembered that email and wanted to find out if this was truly an issue or just something that was targeted to me. It appears to be the latter. I felt obligated to give another fan a heads-up on this as he is in the forefront of the issue.

I asked Matthew if he had ever gotten any such emails and he hadn't. This is a good thing. I believe that the email that I got was more personal then anything else. If I was Matthew, I would be asking the same questions.

Matthew had mentioned that he was starting to run out of space on his site. MP3's of such quality are space hogs for sure. I am willing to share the burden and list some MP3's on one of my sites so people can download them. Of course, only material that is not offered for sale. Certainly before I would do this, I would want to be relatively certain that Lightfoot does not have a problem with it. I think that is a reasonable inquiry.

I don't mind sharing the cost of such a service. I appreciate Matthew's site and find it quite useful, as I am sure everybody here does too. I made Matthew that banner for his site as a thank-you gesture because I truly appreciate his work. I would hate to see him stop adding to his site due to space and cost.

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Old 03-03-2003, 04:43 PM   #12
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Using Gord's material without his permission is technically a copyright infringement, but many so called bootlegs skirt the edge of "taping a TV show off the air" and swapping it with a friend. No one's busted in the door to haul me away for taping West Wing for a friend because that's just part of the culture now.

If someone is selling Lightfoot material without pernmission, then the law should chase after 'em...if someone is giving away Lightfoot material in a very big way without permission, then the law should chase after 'em.

By and large the folks I see turning up on this website are very respectful of Lightfoot and each other, and we'd all be happy to purchase offical material as it is available...and listen to bootlegs until official stuff comes along.

How many of us taped the Reno concert off the air, AND purchased the DVD? That's what fans do...and they often purchase multiple copies of the same item.

Just don't do it to Don Henley - he just might bust in your door himself to collect a royalty!
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Old 03-03-2003, 04:54 PM   #13
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Not only did I tape Reno when it aired, but I also bought 1 VHS from PBS for support for airing it(which was like $75!) and 2 DVD's when they became available in stores. I gave one DVD to another fan. When the final 4 were finally released, I bought 2 of each. Again, giving them to another fan who did not have the money at the time to purchase them. I could have just as easily burned copies but did not want to do that. I firmly believe in supporting the system but like you said, there is a grey area here.

The bottom is that if Lightfoot was not so good live, nobody would want the live shows. He is creating the demand for the live shows, not the fans.
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Old 03-03-2003, 07:39 PM   #14
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BillW, I am glad then that I have never reproduced any Don Henley...man.
Watchman, I am very glad that Gordon Lightfoot is this important. But, I really do not wish to take away from the man any royalties due him or his. Yet, I will admit that I purchase numerous Gord cd's primarily because I wear them out listening to them (my husband only wears out specific tracks). We honestly like Gordon anyway we can get him!
Gwen
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Old 03-03-2003, 07:53 PM   #15
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quote:Originally posted by gwen snyder:

Watchman, I am very glad that Gordon Lightfoot is this important. Gwen


What are you refering to? Must be the paint fumes getting to my brain...
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Old 03-03-2003, 11:12 PM   #16
gwen snyder
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watchman
I was refering to your comments regarding the outlay of cash for assorted GL items. He must be important to you,you would not spend this much on just a proverbial nobody, would you?
Also, the paint fumes? Are you one of those graffiti artists? Or a true artist, who uses Gordon Lightfoots' songs to create? I suspect the latter...
gwen
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