Analogy

[RM]

or is it a simile ? ( I don't know )

When I saw Lightfoot in Tucson, I was seated next to a younger lady. During intermission, I asked her "So, what do you think so far ?" She replied "I really didn't know who he was, but I did recognize some of the songs. My husband is a big fan. He says he's the 'Canadian Troubadour' ". I agreed, and mentioned that he was an iconic and revered figure in Canada. Eager to put my foot in my mouth, I attempted to draw an analogy with a musician in the U.S. that represents to America what Lightfoot does to Canada.

So......fill in the blank (which is what I drew at the time)

Lightfoot is to Canada as (fill in the blank) is to America

This is no right or wrong answer. It's just your own perception.

[Yuri]

Ron, Woody Guthrie comes to mind first for the connections to the land itself.
For contemporary artists, James Taylor perhaps or John Denver.
Yuri

[charlene]

Pete Seeger

[Borderstone]

Oh c'mon....Bob Dylan!

[Jesse Joe]

Im going for Bob Dylan, since they started about the same time, same management office in New-York... (Albert Grossman/ Manager) Bob likes Gord writing a lot, and Gord has been quoted as saying "he's the only other writer that has influence my style." In Canada he has mention that among his many favorites, he'd have to go with Leonard Cohen.

[mandoann]

Originally Posted by charlene

Pete Seeger

I have to agree with you, Char! Public Broadcasting not too long ago aired a special on Pete Seeger called "The Power of Song", and I just found a review which stated:

"The 1960s found Seeger playing godfather to a new generation of folk singers, among them Bob Dylan and Joan Baez".

[charlene]

Originally Posted by mandoann

I have to agree with you, Char! Public Broadcasting not too long ago aired a special on Pete Seeger called "The Power of Song", and I just found a review which stated:

"The 1960s found Seeger playing godfather to a new generation of folk singers, among them Bob Dylan and Joan Baez".

and Gord has played that role to many, many artists here in Canada..going back to the 60's when he let the world know that Gordon Lightfoot was here to stay..

[jj]

rm, i can only speak as a non-US citizen but i think there are similie-arities between willie nelson and gord as i know willie is a well-seasoned household name across the land with a universally recognizable small bag of tunes, not to mention 'voice'...of course there is a much larger bag of tunes that the non-masses have treated themselves to

however, but from what i've read of at various 'folk' sites and listened to over the past few years, i would put john stewart out there as a candidate

it hit me during show#301, @ http://www.woodsongs.com/showlist.asp

[timetraveler]

I'd have to say Jim Croce or even James Taylor.

[ELizabeth]

I second the nomination of the late John Stewart. Give a listen to his 'Mother Country'.

[geodeticman.5]

RM,
I have heard, and read (among innumerable other attempts at defining genius) that genius is in asking the right questions. Explaining that philosophical precept to those who disagree would be out of the pervue of this thread, and would take one better qualified than I to answer.

The reason I mention this is that I believe Ron has asked a brilliant question, because among many other factors, he has have given us cause to pause, and reflect upon what are indeed the qualities we DO attribute strongly to Lightfoot's music, perhaps more so the man, than the music, in so far as this question he's astutely posed to us. They seem inextricably linked, what with so much of his music being a mirror, perhaps a shadow- so pervasive in his songs - even when in metaphor, of his life. He has said this is quite true, but we know how much he enjoys topical songs as well. I have read that Lightfoot, when asked, has said he wished to "be" the Stephen Foster of his century.(no cite, but still noteworthy in good-faith)

POINT BEING - to get right down to it - my answer- Stephen Foster. Realizing of course that he is not a contemporary, but THAT was not in the question. It would seem to me that to compare Foster, a man 'known as the "father of American music," that was the pre-eminent songwriter in the United States of the 19th century.' - Wikipedia- to Lightfoot would be appropriate. I honestly cannot think of an American writer that "is to America what Lighfoot is to Canada" more so than Foster.

The following is perhaps the strongest statement of why, but unfortunately is anecdotal; I am still searching for this perported on-line international poll of the following: "Who do you feel is the best singer/songwriter of the 20th century" - Dylan was in the top 10, as was Johnny Cash, John Denver was #2, and the "#1 "Best singer songwriter of the 20th century" was: Gordon Lightfoot."

I realize this assertion is virtually worthless without being able to cite the origin and substantiate it, but it was of some news in early 2000, not long after the '99 Holidays, as the Media prepared for not only their Best and Worst of '99, but also their Millenium review editions/specials that this ort came out of. According to the story on TV, Lightfoot had considerable pull internationaly, much more so per capita than in the United States; Canada was a hands-down, as one would suspect ! I offer this in good-faith, and acordingly let my case rest on everything in my post BUT this, as it is an unsubstantiated quote.

A quote -"Stephen Foster is amazing. Some of his tunes are so ubiquitous and pervasive, you don't even realize they are songs that someone wrote, they're just part of the American cultural fabric. On top of that, they're beautiful. How many things can claim to be both ubiquitous and beautiful? Coca-Cola is ubiquitous, but you wouldn't call it beautiful. Cole Porter's songs are beautiful, but he's far from ubiquitous. Stephen Foster's songs are both beautiful and ubiquitous, and nobody knows who he is!" -Kevin M. Goess: - Sound like some people speaking of Lightfoot, doesn't it. Substitute Lightfoot with Foster and re-read it..... I realize the 'ubiquitous' is moreso true in Canada currently on radio play, but still.....

A few similarities - "Foster's education included one month at college (Washington & Jefferson College) but little formal music training. Despite this, he published several songs before the age of twenty. His first piece appeared when he was 18.-"Wikipedia". This reminded me of Lightfoot's mentor-based musical training in singing, primarily, versus Foster's, in songwriting per se, but both were writing significant songs prior to adulthood. Also, Lightfoot attended Westlake College of Music in LA, took a handful of key courses in what he knew he needed, and took off blazing to writing/painting songs on a broader pallette.

In Wikipedia - Foster is said to have had a childhood preoccupation with songwriting; like Lightfoot, and was described by some also as a troubadour of the day, and a jonglier too, and minstrel. One must note the minstrel context in pre-civil war days was that of the travelling entertainment /one notch above circus, and most definately was an absolute atrocity in terms of the blackface and other shameful, pejorative sterotypes of African American's in song and dance during this time period that Foster did not hold with, it is said - fortunately - that he felt these (minstrel shows) were tasteless and cruel portrayals, and their accompaying music was of thoughtless prejudice, and yet he was able blend two primary mentors - the German formal music instructor's fundamentals of classic musical structure and reading/writing of music, and a minstrel songwriter's melody and pace - whose songs were - atrocities aside, a bit more zippy and toe-tapping.

Wikipedia also states that, along with Goess, that these two rather glaring dichotomies were a source of friction for the 'soul' of Foster's adolescent learning from the two men; but he was able to extract his own style that became household words and whistled in every kitchen for the last 150 years.
It was said on both articles that people , more often than not, know a large volume of Foster's work by hum and whistle, while very few could name the source. Being in the public domain as well has given to considerable seperation and dissemination of melody and lyric, many songs subsequently "written" were simply new lyrics added to existing Foster melodies !

One other similarity - at times - both Lightfoot and Foster's music were occassionally described as either sad or "'maudlin" - terms. at times ? Lightfoot also writes happy tunes, "mood" pieces, "ethereal" songs, - just as Foster was described by penny-rags of the day that he wrote sad and maudlin tunes as well, but neglected to mention his plethora of happy and "Zippier" tunes - camptown races et al.

Knowing few readers need to hear duplicitously the information on Lightfoot's early mentoring primarily in his Church in singing et al, I would add
a corollary to Foster who apprenticed under two incongrous but equally valuable mentors that ultimately blended into his style:

"Foster was greatly influenced by two men during his teenage years: Henry Kleber (1816-1897) and Dan Rice. The former was a classically trained musician who immigrated from the German city of Darmstadt and opened a music store in Pittsburgh, and who was among Stephen Foster’s few formal music instructors. The latter was an entertainer –- a clown and blackface singer, making his living in traveling circuses. These two very different musical worlds created a tension for the teenage Foster. Although respectful of the more civilized parlor songs of the day, he and his friends would often sit at a piano, writing and singing minstrel songs through the night. Eventually, Foster would learn to blend the two genres to write some of his best work. - Wikipedia

Mr. Foster favoured tasteful, compasionate wording in his music, and encouraged it amongst his contemporaries (pre civil-war), as well , during a period of music (pre-civil war) where minstrelsy was given to "trashy", l "Many of Foster's songs were of the blackface minstrel show tradition popular at the time. Foster sought, in his own words, to "build up taste...among refined people by making words suitable to their taste, instead of the trashy and really offensive words which belong to some songs of that order." He instructed white performers of his songs not to mock slaves but to get their audiences to feel compassion for them.

One note of apology - that of the comparison to Foster. Foster was raised in pre-civil-war south, where the dominant culture taught the....'norms' of the day - now of course known by all but the most ignorant, or callous idiots to be racial stereotyping atrocities. It is said in both sources that Foster was painfully aware of the cruel portrayal as a norm, and he attempted to improve upon, and greatly lessen, the racial stereotyping of the day, despite admittedly some inclusion thereof.

I think both tried to write a vision of a more beautiful, and more humanistic, compassionate world around them; depite the sadness and times of toil and tears and pain. Ultimately - I think they both wound up artistically with a slightly rosey lens to look through - as well songs should lighten the heart in the end.

Maybe a few good reasons to have compared him conceptualy, versus a bevy of 'quotable' likenings between the two, would be that I feel it now grows to a time period in Lightfoot's life and career where we may, in good taste, pay an "amidst-life" homage to his stature. And THAT "Ain't" (sic) no small task. Notably, IMO- in how he may be looked upon post-humously, generations from now - I am inclined, as would come to no one's surprise that has read this far ..lol... to think it will be akin to Stephen Foster in many - not all- ways, most certainly in stature.

Whatever the etylmological and conceptual opposite is of "flash-in-the pan" -musician is what I think Lightfoot will be looked back upon as, in generations to come, much as Stephen Foster's is considered now. Historically, I firmly believe that Lightfoot's "stature" - will do nothing but grow larger and of significantly greater footprints on our cultural ground. That 'cultural footprint' of both men will be seen IMO to have had, and still have, lasting significant impact upon the arts, music, and the people who pay them the attention that is their due.

[spocksbrain]

I'd have to go with ole Bob Dylan. When the others are all dead and gone, and some even forgotten, Bob Dylan will still represent America in musical form better than anyone, much as Gordon epitomizes the Canadian experience in song. Dylan sings blues (America's only truly original form), jazz, rock, folk, country, soul, gospel, rap (yes, Dylan rapped in the 80s), and even a little funk here and there. Plus, I think Lightfoot is always honored when he is equated with Dylan in the press. Of course, (as if you couldnb't tell) I am a big Dylan fan.

[RM]

Originally Posted by geodeticman.5

I believe Ron has asked a brilliant question

Surely there must be a prize for THAT.

[charlene]

you're so needy..
lol
- how 'bout that? there's no 'prize" smilies..

[geodeticman.5]

Originally Posted by RM

Surely there must be a prize for THAT.

But I better be very, very very careful...all of corfid is at stake

[geodeticman.5]

Originally Posted by charlene

you're so needy..
lol
- how 'bout that? there's no 'prize" smilies..

Hey Char ! No fair ! I compliment Ron where it is due....and he gets a...nice...word from you.... I don't get 'nice' notes of encouragement and cheer from you anymore...... I am sad...... Ron gets nice n stuff n I don;t but well then.. I never do ...but HE does n so....-sigh- deflated

I write a heartfelt, very carefully thought out response to Ron's very very good question, and NOBODY says anything.... what am I not HEAR n stuff like that n welll....its just not fair....n stuff n... NO FAIR......I'd put America's greatest songwriter UP THERE SOMEWHERE... do ppl have no sense of history ? n stuff like that no fair..... n Rin gets a feel better on your boo-boo kiss......n stuff .....not fair.... grumble grouse... lol

[charlene]

Oh dear..you two guys are wearing me out..

[Nightingale]

Well, I am still thinking about this.
It's hard because I can't really think of another artist quite like Gordon Lightfoot.

Sure, there is a similarity in style to Dylan, Croce, James Taylor but the fact is, all of those artists have somewhat limited appeal or are in a specific category of music.
( Willie Nelson=country)

To me, Gordon has such a broad fan base that there really isn't an artist that can compare in that way to him.
Maybe....Elvis?
Just for the fact that he is such a legend and so many people did, and still do, love him.

Johnny Cash, even though he was primarily a country singer, he did have a very huge fan base of all ages and tastes.

I love Dylan's music but not his voice and I know a lot of people feel that way.
Gordon's voice, on the other hand, is beautiful with every song he sings...perfect.

Okay, still thinking....

[Nightingale]

Steve, I understand where you are coming from with the Stephen Foster idea but most of us don't know that much about his music.

I Dream Of Jeannie With The Light Brown Hair....okay, a very beautiful song. It's the only S. Fsoter song that comes to mind readily.
That's the only problem that I have with your comparison.

Most people, even if they are not a Lightfoot fan, can pull up at least five or six songs from the top of their head...easily.

Hey, I read your posts even if I don't always reply to them...lol.
We appreciate deep thinking around here

Don't have hurt feelings. We all take notice of your ideas and thoughts

[jj]

great opinions...one can compare from a singing, songwriting, durability perspective, etc, etc but as far as what he is to Canada? he is not eccentric or stand-off-ish... the charm of Gord is that he is a non-celebrity, accessible...sure he has earned some royalties over the years so affords to live in a decent neighbourhood but you could run into and get a "howdy" from Mr Cool on any local street or in a hardware store...Gord the Plumber

char, do you still have that well weathered Stephen Foster songbook? it would look good on the Heintzman

a lovely post, steve...rotten thread idea, rm....oh, doo da day

[charlene]

of course I still have it! I should scan and post some of the tunes..

I'll get it out if you come over and play a few tunes..

thinking of selling the old Heintzman in the spring..

[geodeticman.5]

Originally Posted by charlene

Oh dear..you two guys are wearing me out..

Thaaank you Ms Char, my scraped knee feels better now... See that , Ron ? She was nice to ME.....LOL.....

Thanks Char. Funny thing is, after I typed that out in humour, I checked back in lyrics, and there ws a compliment to me from you allready, from the other day....'nice lclues, Steveo'. Thanks...and...well...n stuff....uhm..I didn't really have scraped knee. Just an atta' boy.... ! But I'll take whatever praise or nicety I can get ! All in fun, but thank you.

[mandoann]

Well, just for the record, "Your Love's Return" is subtitled "Song for Stephen Foster"...

[geodeticman.5]

Originally Posted by jj

great opinions...one can compare from a singing, songwriting, durability perspective, etc, etc but as far as what he is to Canada? he is not eccentric or stand-off-ish... the charm of Gord is that he is a non-celebrity, accessible...sure he has earned some royalties over the years so affords to live in a decent neighbourhood but you could run into and get a "howdy" from Mr Cool on any local street or in a hardware store...Gord the Plumber

char, do you still have that well weathered Stephen Foster songbook? it would look good on the Heintzman

a lovely post, steve...rotten thread idea, rm....oh, doo da day

jj, thanks jj, but I gotta root for RM on this thread idea, I honestly do think it was an excellent thought-provoking idea.....won that could go on as long and as off-thread as the infamous 'Dylan cover of INSTC' debacle,....lol

So I do stand by Ron's thread idea. Thanks again for the post compliment., jj

One other thought- The older candidates (Seeger, Foster) aren't categorically less viable because the question did not refer to contemporaries, it in fact IMO negged for a broader stroke, lasting effect on a country ie(our choice is to the USA, as Lightfoot is to Canada. That almost walks us right into the historical showroom, which Gordon is allready casting a tall shadow upon - when a guy is told he 'said more in that book [CRT[ than I (Bertone) said in pages... and when a large fraction of the populus in Canada is said to believe that Gordon Lightfoot wrote 'Oh, Canada'

[Texan Tom]

I am going with Elvis. The styles are certainly not the same, but the reverence is.