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Old 08-26-2002, 09:48 PM   #26
Bill Allen
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quote:Originally posted by 2Much2Lose:
I didn't see Derek's reply as I was writing mine (above).

I agree with everything he said.



But...but...I agree with everything YOU said! Dang...this is getting awfully confusing!
Derek
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Old 08-26-2002, 09:48 PM   #27
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quote:Originally posted by 2Much2Lose:
I didn't see Derek's reply as I was writing mine (above).

I agree with everything he said.



But...but...I agree with everything YOU said! Dang...this is getting awfully confusing!
Derek
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Old 08-26-2002, 11:54 PM   #28
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Several excellent points have been made. When I say "Gord is the best" I am speaking for myself with a bit of bias. A better statement would be: "No one is better than Gordon." I could say the same thing about several songwriters. To pick out the "best" is a fruitless pursuit. Each artist is an individual with no one else like them. This makes music interesting. I think we are very blessed to have so many fine singer/songwriters to listen to.
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Old 08-26-2002, 11:54 PM   #29
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Several excellent points have been made. When I say "Gord is the best" I am speaking for myself with a bit of bias. A better statement would be: "No one is better than Gordon." I could say the same thing about several songwriters. To pick out the "best" is a fruitless pursuit. Each artist is an individual with no one else like them. This makes music interesting. I think we are very blessed to have so many fine singer/songwriters to listen to.
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Old 08-28-2002, 11:33 AM   #30
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I don't think it's fair or correct to use an individual's personal preferences as the measure of an artist's greatness. So the issue of whether or not the Watchman likes the Beatles, while relevant to his personal choices, is not relevant to a measure of the greatness of an artist. Similarly, our love for Gord and his music speaks to a different issue than the issue of greatness.

I think there are several characteristics of greatness. Among them are universality, influence, timelessness and craft (skill). I believe that Gord's music is timeless, that it still will be appreciated hundreds of years from now. I know that he is a craftsman. He falls short on the scale of influence and the scale of universiality (with minor exceptions). Few of his songs address universal themes (with exceptions such as Beautiful).

I am sure that the Beatles' music is timeless and extremely influential, and not just to rock'n rollers. Their songs are the new standards of our age, interpreted and covered by jazz and classical artists, as well as rock. Moreover, the Beatles' music, films and off-screen behavior had an impact on society in the '60s. Their craftsmanship is superb and extremely complex and the songs, especially the later ones, address universal themes, such as the transcendence of love and the disconnectedness of modern life.

Although popularity cannot be the sole measure of greatness (consider the lack of popularity of the Iliad and Odyssey today), it is another factor to be considered. Most adults (over 21) would be hard-pressed to name more than one or two Gord songs, if that many. I'd wager that most adults could name at least 10 or more Beatles songs or Elvis songs. Until recently, "Yesterday" was the most played song on the radio in history (Unchained Melody has passed it). Similarly, if one measures the number of songs "covered" by other artists, the Beatles' music has a vast lead over anyone else.

Just as a matter of curiosity, I'd love to know how many Beatles' songs that Watchman can name, even though (1) he is not a fan, (2) he grew up after Lennon was already dead and (3) grew up more than a decade after the Beatles broke up.

(Since (1), (2) and (3) don't apply to me, I can tell you that I can name well over 100 songs by the Beatles, either as individuals or as a group. But I could also do that with Gord. LOL)



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Old 08-28-2002, 11:33 AM   #31
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I don't think it's fair or correct to use an individual's personal preferences as the measure of an artist's greatness. So the issue of whether or not the Watchman likes the Beatles, while relevant to his personal choices, is not relevant to a measure of the greatness of an artist. Similarly, our love for Gord and his music speaks to a different issue than the issue of greatness.

I think there are several characteristics of greatness. Among them are universality, influence, timelessness and craft (skill). I believe that Gord's music is timeless, that it still will be appreciated hundreds of years from now. I know that he is a craftsman. He falls short on the scale of influence and the scale of universiality (with minor exceptions). Few of his songs address universal themes (with exceptions such as Beautiful).

I am sure that the Beatles' music is timeless and extremely influential, and not just to rock'n rollers. Their songs are the new standards of our age, interpreted and covered by jazz and classical artists, as well as rock. Moreover, the Beatles' music, films and off-screen behavior had an impact on society in the '60s. Their craftsmanship is superb and extremely complex and the songs, especially the later ones, address universal themes, such as the transcendence of love and the disconnectedness of modern life.

Although popularity cannot be the sole measure of greatness (consider the lack of popularity of the Iliad and Odyssey today), it is another factor to be considered. Most adults (over 21) would be hard-pressed to name more than one or two Gord songs, if that many. I'd wager that most adults could name at least 10 or more Beatles songs or Elvis songs. Until recently, "Yesterday" was the most played song on the radio in history (Unchained Melody has passed it). Similarly, if one measures the number of songs "covered" by other artists, the Beatles' music has a vast lead over anyone else.

Just as a matter of curiosity, I'd love to know how many Beatles' songs that Watchman can name, even though (1) he is not a fan, (2) he grew up after Lennon was already dead and (3) grew up more than a decade after the Beatles broke up.

(Since (1), (2) and (3) don't apply to me, I can tell you that I can name well over 100 songs by the Beatles, either as individuals or as a group. But I could also do that with Gord. LOL)



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Old 08-28-2002, 04:33 PM   #32
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I'm a Brit and I do not rever the Beatles.
I can name a few of their songs but not many.
Most of them I find boring or nonsensical.
I have never understood their 'greatness'.
Personal preferences must have something to do with what is considered to be 'Great'.
If nobody had listened to the Beatles, bought
their records, etc. Would they not have
disappeared into the mists of the 1960s
never to be heard of again? Would they then
have been considered such great songwriters?
Personal preferences of their hysterical fans
at that time made them icons and so they
entered the realms of 'Greatness'. But this
is just my personal opinion. What the heck
do I know other than for me Gordon Lightfoot
is the best!


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Old 08-28-2002, 04:59 PM   #33
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Well I have to say Gordon is my favorite singer songwriter. His music is the background for my life in a lot of ways. I also like his voice. It has a haunting yet romantic sound. My other favorites are John Haitt, John Prine, Jimmy Buffett, Steve Earle, Nanci Griffith, bob Dylan. Neil Young, Kate Wolf, and Stan Rogers. All unique in there own ways. I know have 8,478 cd'since
salute and shadows.
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Old 08-28-2002, 05:23 PM   #34
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This is a great thread BUT I just need to verify one point. paddletothesea: did you say 8,478 cds? As in: eight thousand four hundred and seventy eight? Really? That's very cool!

Bill
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Old 08-28-2002, 07:44 PM   #35
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i'm a big fan of a lot of people, but i get a bit annoyed at the lack of appreciation of Gordon's work. with the ever increasing amount of c.d.'s that get poured into stores weekly, & as the age of music buyers gets younger, it's obvious that people's tastes are turning elsewhere. what really bothers me is there are too many folks my age that don't care if Gord ever releases another album. for example, why was Massey Hall filled every night during the "Shadows" tour, but the album died virtually stillborn?
the answer is people just want to hear the hits. (except of course, the true Lightheads).
i've strayed a bit from the orig. topic, but the bottom line is this: Lennon & McCartney could never have written "Seven Island Suite" while Gordon could never have written "Let it Be".
i'm just glad that "7 Island..." got a mention. truly a wonderful song!
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Old 08-28-2002, 07:45 PM   #36
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheWatchman:

Personal opinions are exactly how you measure an artist. This is how you measure popularity as well as influence.


This is a big difference between art and science. Measurement in Science is quantitative, In art it's qualitative. The fact that Helium is an inert gas is not a matter of opinion, nor is it inert because that's the way it touched someone's heart. It's a result of analysis of the properties of Helium. Therefore,it is the safest gas to use in a blimp. Somebody stating why a particular artist is better than another can only be based on their opinion and feelings. (So, "Gordon Lightfoot is the best singer/songwriter ever because he is lighter than air and non-combustible" is probably an opinion).
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Old 08-28-2002, 08:49 PM   #37
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Watchman,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that the only Beatles songs you've ever heard are those which receive radio airplay. Though many Beatles tracks do get airplay, obviously most don't, so what you hear on the radio cannot fairly represent the extent of their output. I bet you'd be ASTONISHED if you were to listen to the entire Help! album, the entire Rubber Soul album, the entire White album, the entire Abbey Road album, etc. Beatles discs are supersaturated with tremendous tunes. While it may be true that "I Want To Hold Your Hand" is, as you say, "simple music," this misses the point. As previously stated, what most impresses is the prolificness and rapid growth of the Beatles: 13 albums in only seven or eight years, FROM "I Want To Hold Your Hand" all the unbelievable way TO "A Day In The Life" (and beyond). I love the music of Gordon Lightfoot, but consider this: Lightfoot can write well in perhaps one or two "styles" or "genres" of music, but the Beatles were talented with pretty much EVERY possible style (rock, pop, blues, folk, metal, broadway and whatever I've left out). No exaggeration.
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Old 08-28-2002, 08:49 PM   #38
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Watchman,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that the only Beatles songs you've ever heard are those which receive radio airplay. Though many Beatles tracks do get airplay, obviously most don't, so what you hear on the radio cannot fairly represent the extent of their output. I bet you'd be ASTONISHED if you were to listen to the entire Help! album, the entire Rubber Soul album, the entire White album, the entire Abbey Road album, etc. Beatles discs are supersaturated with tremendous tunes. While it may be true that "I Want To Hold Your Hand" is, as you say, "simple music," this misses the point. As previously stated, what most impresses is the prolificness and rapid growth of the Beatles: 13 albums in only seven or eight years, FROM "I Want To Hold Your Hand" all the unbelievable way TO "A Day In The Life" (and beyond). I love the music of Gordon Lightfoot, but consider this: Lightfoot can write well in perhaps one or two "styles" or "genres" of music, but the Beatles were talented with pretty much EVERY possible style (rock, pop, blues, folk, metal, broadway and whatever I've left out). No exaggeration.
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Old 08-28-2002, 09:58 PM   #39
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For whatever it's worth, Watchman... Try the Beatles' Rubber Soul for their most catchy tunes, most consistent sound, most tight bandlike effort. Try the White album for the Beatles' on their way to breaking apart but admirably tackling every imaginable musical style. (Again, the wonder is not most product in least time; it is the accelerated musical growth, under the guidance of producer George Martin.) Much thanks for your opinions and replies.
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Old 08-28-2002, 09:58 PM   #40
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For whatever it's worth, Watchman... Try the Beatles' Rubber Soul for their most catchy tunes, most consistent sound, most tight bandlike effort. Try the White album for the Beatles' on their way to breaking apart but admirably tackling every imaginable musical style. (Again, the wonder is not most product in least time; it is the accelerated musical growth, under the guidance of producer George Martin.) Much thanks for your opinions and replies.
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Old 08-29-2002, 11:25 AM   #41
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quote:Originally posted by BILLW:
This is a great thread BUT I just need to verify one point. paddletothesea: did you say 8,478 cds? As in: eight thousand four hundred and seventy eight? Really? That's very cool!

Bill


Eight thousand four hundred and eighty two now!
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Old 08-29-2002, 11:28 AM   #42
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Im personally dont think we should be comparing the Beatles with Lightfoot. They are both masters, just like the other thousands of artist out there. What we compare is how there music relates to our own personal emotions, feelings, and life. It could even be from a past life experience. There is no such thing as "better" or good or bad....things are what they are.
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Old 08-29-2002, 01:20 PM   #43
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WOW. Some opinions here! I have just read the first 'thread' and it appears to say QUOTE: Is there anyone else who agrees that GORD is probably one of the best and most original singers around. UNQUOTE. The simple answer is "I agree" or "I disagree" However we seem to have a discussion about Gordon's and certain others, songwriting abilities. I am not arrogant enough to suggest that any particular songwriter is 'The Best' But Gordon is certainly right up there. As for J&P, it was not so long ago that they had a massive selling album of 26 of their songs which made No1 in the UK & USA ( one GH song making 27 in all )this some 30 plus years down the line. Not too many artistes will be able to claim that. Further to that I read somewhere that PMs US tour totally sold out 75 minutes after tickets went on sale, must mean something. However Gordon rules OK.
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Old 08-29-2002, 01:20 PM   #44
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WOW. Some opinions here! I have just read the first 'thread' and it appears to say QUOTE: Is there anyone else who agrees that GORD is probably one of the best and most original singers around. UNQUOTE. The simple answer is "I agree" or "I disagree" However we seem to have a discussion about Gordon's and certain others, songwriting abilities. I am not arrogant enough to suggest that any particular songwriter is 'The Best' But Gordon is certainly right up there. As for J&P, it was not so long ago that they had a massive selling album of 26 of their songs which made No1 in the UK & USA ( one GH song making 27 in all )this some 30 plus years down the line. Not too many artistes will be able to claim that. Further to that I read somewhere that PMs US tour totally sold out 75 minutes after tickets went on sale, must mean something. However Gordon rules OK.
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Old 08-29-2002, 03:21 PM   #45
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Clearly there are such things as good, bad, and better...among climates, musicians, cultures, etc. Surely we can all confidently say that the music of Gordon Lightfoot is better than that of Britney Spears, for example. In fact, I'll risk banishment from this site and declare outright that Britney Spears--her music, personality, and influence--is BAD BAD BAD.
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Old 08-29-2002, 03:21 PM   #46
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Clearly there are such things as good, bad, and better...among climates, musicians, cultures, etc. Surely we can all confidently say that the music of Gordon Lightfoot is better than that of Britney Spears, for example. In fact, I'll risk banishment from this site and declare outright that Britney Spears--her music, personality, and influence--is BAD BAD BAD.
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Old 08-29-2002, 03:41 PM   #47
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quote:Originally posted by TheWatchman:
If we just typed "I agree" or "I disagree", wouldn't that be incredibly boring? Personal opinions are make this world interesting and allows people to explore and try new things. Case in point: I am going to buy my first Beatles CD tonight. If it had not been for all these posts and all the personal opinions here, I never would have even thought about the Beatles.

There is nothing wrong with comaring one band to another for the sake of discussion. We compare things everyday whether we are conscience of it or not. So why not compare music for the sake of a good discussion especially when music is a very important part of our lives? It is personal choice to like one over another, or to think that one is stronger in certain areas and so forth. Like I said earlier, there is no one right or wrong answer. It's just cool to read others remarks about this stuff. I don't think that anyone ever wrote that one is definitely better than the other. It's just how we see certain musicians fitting within the whole scene. Personally, I have really enjoyed reading others posts here and it has allowed to want to dig in a little further to the Beatles music.

It's kind of cool that we can have discussions like this on the web. Now I am looking forward to exploring the music of a legandary band that I never would have even considered prior to the start of this thread. You can thank this thread for that!

[This message has been edited by TheWatchman (edited August 29, 2002).]


In my mind, this is definitely what it's all about - sharing the music (Lightfoot's as well as others). BTW, Rubber Soul is my favorite Beatles album and since I was very young during the 60's and early 70's I gained my appreciation of their talents after the fact, so you may too. You'll have to let us know what you think.
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Old 08-29-2002, 07:38 PM   #48
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I agree with most of The Watchman's first post. Though, I've been listening to Gord for almost my whole life, which is a lot longer than 12 years,

The Beatles do absolutely nothing for me. Never have. Lyrics are very important to me and the Beatles always sounded like nonsense. I suppose at that age, the Rolling Stones were heads and tails beyond them in my personal tastes.

That was then, I enjoyed them. Did they stand the test of time? No not really. Gord has, and he always will, for me. He's magical. He takes me to that dreamland place. I never get tired of him, it's always fresh and insightful, to me.

Everyone always rants about how great Bob Dylan is. For years, every time he came on the radio, I would turn it off! Same with the Beatles and The Grateful Dead. They irritate me to no end. Even Bob Dylan's supposed great songs, sung by other people, don't touch me.
Does anyone remember "A Clockwork Orange"? The man that was the main characters' victim, early on in the movie, locked the main character in a room, and turned up the music that the main character was trained to detest, and the main character ended up jumping out the window. (How's that for a long sentence?) I think if I were forced to endure any of these . . .

There's just something about Gord, that touches me, lyrically and musically.
Kim


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Old 08-29-2002, 08:19 PM   #49
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Watchman,

Sorry for the confusion. Too big words and too little sleep make me forget that moving my head up and down is yes and side to side is no and not the other way around. So, all lame metaphors aside, I agree with you. Gord's great because he is.

Brian
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Old 08-30-2002, 03:43 PM   #50
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The Watchman's response to my post blurs the distinction between "personal preferences" and "personal opinion." One can "prefer" to listen to a certain piece but not have the "opinion" that it is a high quality of artistry.

Of course opinions matter in evaluating an artist's work. And personal preferences can certainly shape opinions. Even Shakespeare was in relatively low regard in the 1700's due to the preferences of the time, until he was revived through fresh interpretations in the late 1800's. So perhaps we have very little disagreement about quality and more of a difference in tastes.

Just 2 more comments, unrelated. Brittany's song "Oops, I Did It Again" is great pop music. However, she herself had very little to do with the strength of that song, since her interpretation is formulaic, and since her primary appeal to her audience is blonde hair, breast implants and suggestive dancing.
That said, her music generally sucks. LOL

I take no offense, and am not surprised, that some folks do not like the Beatles. However, I am surprised that anyone would have trouble naming 10 of their songs (as a group or as individual artists).

Is there really anyone who can read the list below (40 songs) and not pick out 10 that he/she knows (or could hum)?

I Wanna Hold Your Hand
Can't Buy Me Love
She Loves You (Yeh Yeh Yeh)
Twist and Shout
Yesterday

A Hard Day's Night
Eight Days a Week
Norwegian Wood
Michelle
Nowhere Man

If I Fell
Ticket to Ride
Help!
Hello, Goodbye
Penny Lane

Eight Days a Week
Eleanor Rigby
Lady Madonna
Strawberry Fields Forever
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds

All You Need Is Love
Yellow Submarine
When I'm Sixty-Four
Fool on the Hill
Revolution

Hey Jude
Here Comes the Sun
Something
Come Together
Get Back

Let it Be
The Long and Winding Road
Give Peace a Chance
Live and Let Die
Happy Christmas (War is Over)

My Sweet Lord
Imagine
Band on the Run
(Just Like) Starting Over
Woman

Moreover, the above list does not include ANY songs from St. Pepper's or the White Album, two of their best.

I'd be interested in knowing The Watchman's count of songs recognized, and the count of any other non-Beatles fan.

I'm perfectly willing to be educated on this one! LOL




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