Gordon Lightfoot Forums - View Single Post - question about "I Wish You Good Spaces: the book

2Much2Lose · 09-25-2002, 04:21 PM

I chose not to share my personal religious beliefs in this forum, although some of you may know them, but I feel it necessary to comment on what are the proper parameters of discussions of religion within this discussion forum. In my opinion, Watchman has gone far beyond mere response to a thread and has strayed into the realm of proselytizing. Inherent in his responses is his claim to have been shown the "one true faith." Many, if not most, religions claim to be the one true faith, and this is especially true for the more radically fundamental adherents whether believers in Islam, Christian fundamentalism, Mormonism or Judaism.

The problem with making professions of such faiths is that the speaker inherently criticizes those who do not share his views as unbelievers, infidels. As Abraham Lincoln said (I paraphrase), when two opposing sides both claim to be on the side of God, at least one, and perhaps both, is wrong.

Watchman could use a course on comparative religions, where he might learn that it was common in first century (and older) religions to include resurrection stories (Orpheus, Eurydice, Jason, Ulysses, Aeneas all traveled to and returned from the land of the dead). Accordingly, the question of whether to believe the Christian resurrection story is not dependent upon its uniqueness, but rather is purely a matter of faith. One cannot prove that Christianity is correct (or incorrect); one can merely believe it (or disbelieve).

I note that Christ never addressed the subject of reincarnation, so there is no way of knowing whether reincarnation of the soul (i.e, as a human, not a coffee cup) is consistent with the teachings of Jesus. It strikes me that reincarnation is not too different from dividing the wheat from the chaff and the lambs from the goats. To believe in the soul's purification thru experiencing higher and higher planes of existence is very similar to the Christian view expressed in Dante's Divine Comedy. Indeed, what is purgatory but a place where the soul's errors are purged so as to allow the soul to ascend to a higher plane (heaven)?

I note also that Watchman's claim that this country was founded by Christian men is inaccurate. Jefferson did not consider himself a Christian; rather, he was a deist who called Revelations (the Apocalypse of St. John) "the ravings of a madman." He wrote to John Adams as follows:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823) Jefferson also stated:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

Patriot Thomas Paine, whose statue is across the street from my office, openly criticized the Bible and called it nonsense in his deist-atheistic book, "The Age of Reason."

George Washington never professed any Christian beliefs and he appointed a universalist as army chaplain.

Ethan Allen stated "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." Allan said he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."

Benjamin Franklin expressed doubts as to the divinity of Christ, but said it was not worth his time or trouble to study the subject more thoroughly.

The Treaty of Tripoli, which ended the conflict with the Barbary pirates and was signed by President John Adams, contains the following statement: "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

I am not making these statements to criticize those who believe in Christianity. Nor do I say them to give comfort to the pagans and Jews and Mormons and Buddhists among us. I merely want to put the record straight and to say that this is not the time or place for proselytizing. Take it offline or into a chat room.

Now, having said more than enough on the subject, could we please get back to Lightfoot and to praying (as each of us sees fit) for his recovery?

2M2L

------------------
"And the laughter came too easy for life to pass me by."

09-25-2002, 04:21 PM	#20
2Much2Lose Senior Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: Sherwood Forest, MD Posts: 387	I chose not to share my personal religious beliefs in this forum, although some of you may know them, but I feel it necessary to comment on what are the proper parameters of discussions of religion within this discussion forum. In my opinion, Watchman has gone far beyond mere response to a thread and has strayed into the realm of proselytizing. Inherent in his responses is his claim to have been shown the "one true faith." Many, if not most, religions claim to be the one true faith, and this is especially true for the more radically fundamental adherents whether believers in Islam, Christian fundamentalism, Mormonism or Judaism. The problem with making professions of such faiths is that the speaker inherently criticizes those who do not share his views as unbelievers, infidels. As Abraham Lincoln said (I paraphrase), when two opposing sides both claim to be on the side of God, at least one, and perhaps both, is wrong. Watchman could use a course on comparative religions, where he might learn that it was common in first century (and older) religions to include resurrection stories (Orpheus, Eurydice, Jason, Ulysses, Aeneas all traveled to and returned from the land of the dead). Accordingly, the question of whether to believe the Christian resurrection story is not dependent upon its uniqueness, but rather is purely a matter of faith. One cannot prove that Christianity is correct (or incorrect); one can merely believe it (or disbelieve). I note that Christ never addressed the subject of reincarnation, so there is no way of knowing whether reincarnation of the soul (i.e, as a human, not a coffee cup) is consistent with the teachings of Jesus. It strikes me that reincarnation is not too different from dividing the wheat from the chaff and the lambs from the goats. To believe in the soul's purification thru experiencing higher and higher planes of existence is very similar to the Christian view expressed in Dante's Divine Comedy. Indeed, what is purgatory but a place where the soul's errors are purged so as to allow the soul to ascend to a higher plane (heaven)? I note also that Watchman's claim that this country was founded by Christian men is inaccurate. Jefferson did not consider himself a Christian; rather, he was a deist who called Revelations (the Apocalypse of St. John) "the ravings of a madman." He wrote to John Adams as follows: "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823) Jefferson also stated: "Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus." Patriot Thomas Paine, whose statue is across the street from my office, openly criticized the Bible and called it nonsense in his deist-atheistic book, "The Age of Reason." George Washington never professed any Christian beliefs and he appointed a universalist as army chaplain. Ethan Allen stated "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." Allan said he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." Benjamin Franklin expressed doubts as to the divinity of Christ, but said it was not worth his time or trouble to study the subject more thoroughly. The Treaty of Tripoli, which ended the conflict with the Barbary pirates and was signed by President John Adams, contains the following statement: "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." I am not making these statements to criticize those who believe in Christianity. Nor do I say them to give comfort to the pagans and Jews and Mormons and Buddhists among us. I merely want to put the record straight and to say that this is not the time or place for proselytizing. Take it offline or into a chat room. Now, having said more than enough on the subject, could we please get back to Lightfoot and to praying (as each of us sees fit) for his recovery? 2M2L ------------------ "And the laughter came too easy for life to pass me by."